Our Collective Cowardice Is Their Friend

NATCA Executive Vice President Paul Rinaldi is fond of ending most of his internal correspondence with the pom-pom waving, "Our collective spirit is their enemy!"  Sometimes he writes it in bold print, sometimes he puts it in ALL CAPS, and sometimes he does both.  I think Mr. Rinaldi is hoping to use this trite phrase as some sort of rally cry, serving as a maypole of unification in the face of unsavory labor-management relationships.  Rah, Rah, sis-boom-bah, give me your dues money, ya-ya-ya!

Ahhh.........bullshit.  "Our collective cowardice is their friend" is more like it.

The 11th (I think) Biennial NATCA National Convention convened in Miami Beach, Florida this year for three days of local partying, Regional Dinnering, Welcoming Receptioning and a Closing Pool Bash with barrels of cold beer, live music, and tables covered with food.  Live music most nights, free cocktails, hor de' vors, and merriment.  Oh....and some actual union business by the Supreme Body of the Association, with "full and complete authority" over all the union's affairs.

At this convention the delegates mandated that the union create a fund to assist members that are defending themselves against lawsuits not covered by the union's insurance policy.  The resolution stated that the first priority for the distribution of these funds was to be the case that Bob Marks and I are now involved in.  The resolution even went so far as to say, "NATCA National shall make an initial deposit to this fund of $300,000."

Notice that the plain language of the resolution says nothing about "dues money."  It says, "NATCA National shall make an initial deposit."  Reading this at the time I thought, "Why would the convention body make the employees of the NATCA National Office pass the hat and pony up three hundred grand?  Oh, well, they are the Supreme Body....."

When given the opportunity to run with this ball (over a year ago,) the NATCA National Executive Board rolled over on their collective backs and wet themselves.  You could hear their knees knocking in Nevada.

The NEB's inaction and politically motivated hatchet job was so blatant then that more than two whole days of the convention were dedicated to righting the Boards' wrongs.  The resolution which was adopted wasn't everything that everybody wanted, to be sure, but the delegates left that hall convinced that their will and intent had been heard, and that the NEB would move forward to act and protect former National Officers who were clearly acting within the scope of their responsibilities while IN office, and assisting a NATCA Local at explicit request AFTER they left office.  That much was clear to EVERYBODY.  Everybody, that is, except for the elected NATCA National Executive Board.

When I was President of the Union I very quickly learned one extremely important leadership skill:  The way to get your lawyers to work properly.  Essentially this involved two choices:  When the Union President wants to do something, he tells the General Counsel what he wants to do and then directs them to go find the case law that allows for it.  Conversely, when the Union President DOESN'T want to do something, he tells the General Counsel what he DOESN'T want to do and then directs them to go find the case law that prohibits that.  Since there is abundant case law on either side of every issue, from Roe V. Wade to capital punishment, the task was never hard and it never failed.  Clearly, NATCA President Pat Forrey and his "Collective Spirit" chose Door Number Two.  Here, look:

Download OurCollectiveCowards.pdf 

The Little Union That Couldn't has spent thousands on booze for the Board, congac and cigars for FAA management, taken smiling pictures of the FAA Storm Troopers happily yucking it up with Pat The Great Surrenderer, but not a dime in defense of their officers actions while in office or their response to a call for help from a chartered local.  Not.  One.  Thin.  Dime.

I have been told that the NEB plans to engage in "vigorous fundraising" on my behalf.  I have told them in no uncertain terms that I would not allow it.  I have seen their kind of help, and I can do without it.  Powerless Pat Forrey, sloshy Phil Barbarello, MIA Mike Robicheau, some guy named Farrow who hasn't been seen since the last election and the others sitting in the crows nest shouting, "Iceberg, dead ahead!" gives me no comfort whatsoever.  I would rather the NEB stand on their own clay feet, step out of my shadow, and think of something to do---even one thing---that doesn't look like a total hand-job to FAA management.

I have very little faith that so many of my enemies---none of whom have contributed one penny to MY vigorous fundraising---will lift more than a courtesy finger, and I think it will be the middle one. 

In addition, I have seen the NEB fundraise before.  I think they got five hundred dollars for Jerry McArthur.  You good people of The Main Bang they hate so much got fifteen grand.  I think they got jack plus shit for the Shiffletts.  You wonderful folks at The Main Bang got twenty three grand in 36 hours.  "Vigorously fundraise."  That's got about as much credibility as Pat Forrey's "Bridge" (to nowhere.)  The only bridge he has built in two years of a Democratic Congress has been one of friendship....to his pals marion, booby, mini-smoochie, the small johnson, heil ventris and the rest of the turds-in-suits at the Puzzle Palace. 

I have asked the NEB to NOT fundraise on my behalf.  They have fornicated this canine since Day One, when they could have covered everyone and coordinated ALL strategy for ALL defendants, themselves included.  They chose not to do that, relying instead on knock-kneed and suspect legal advice from a labor lawyer without a thimble's full of help from experts in the field.  They chose instead to pee the bed. Their kind of help, I can do without.  I would get better help from FAAMA,  And that thought makes me want to throw up in my own mouth.

The Board is circling the wagons, ready to spew out another opinion prepared for them by lawyers.  It was a nice drive-by hatchet job they did on me at convention, passing out fifteen pages of one-sided (and often factually wrong) opinion, giving me five whole minutes at the microphone to counter it.  Woo-woo, some of Paulies' COLLECTIVE TEEN SPIRIT!!!!!  Yeeeeehaw!  Every single time there has been a fork in the road, this NEB has chosen to stick me in the back with it. 

The last time I looked, lawyers have a 50% error rate.  That is, in every case there is a winning lawyer, and a losing lawyer.  50%.  So regardless of what NATCA's attorneys tell them...they stand a 50% chance of being wrong.  And NATCA labor attorneys giving advice to a Supreme-Court-arguing First Amendment attorney, one of the pre-eminent jurists in his field, on matters of Arizona state law, is just laughable.  Incredulous.  Unbelievable. 

But...convenient and politically expedient if you have no intention of assisting Bob and I.  You can thump your chest and declare that you were "protecting the union."  "The lawyers made me do it."  "My hands were tied."  Yeah.  Right.  Like they protected Jerry McArthur.  Like they protected Dan Olsen.  Like their hands were tied when they sat down to smiling pictures with the Administrator right before the congressional hearing. Like they have protected so many reps they have thrown under the NATCA bus. 

I never really expected Pat's Pansies to stand for something when so far they have fallen for anything.  From the ATSAP program Bobby broke off in their colon to the ashen-faced Pat watching Bobby out-maneuver him with Congress, declaring that he had sent offer after offer over that NATCA refused, this group has been one collective duck-and-cover. 

I remember when Pat used to fly his WHOLE region's worth of representatives down to Phoenix to stay in a NON-UNION hotel for three days of drinking and eating on the NATCA dime and thinking, "What does this asshole think he is doing?  Aren't there any UNION hotels in the Great Lakes region that these people could all drive to?  Do we have to piss away this money on airfare and expensive, NON UNION lodging, so Pat can pretend to "be the man," impressing his minions with the fancy Tapatio Resort?

Gone are the days of Ajax Kidd and Joe Formoso and Joe Bellino and Joe Fruscella and Bob Butterworth and Dom Torchia and all the other warriors who knew that an attack against any one of us was an attack against EVERY one of us.  I remember my first meeting with Jane Garvey, when I told her that her treatment of the Chicago case would define our relationship.  I remember when Andy Cantwell was facing discipline for a smartly worded letter that he wrote.  Did I ask him whether he was in the right or not?  No.  I sat him down with the Administrator, they made smoochie-smoochie, and the problem went away. (For Andy's protection I note that the Administrator was Garvey, not Elvira.  If he made smoochie with the Blakester I'm sure his lips would fall off.) 

Now we have Pizza Pat and his pals, flying down to Oklahoma City to encourage kids they CAN'T EVEN REPRESENT to give them money and join the union.  Instead of standing up to the FAA we have Paulie and the boys saying, "Kids, raise your head above the foxhole so the FAA can see you reeeeeal good." 

And the reward for that so far has been a rash of terminations of new employees, most on their 364th day of employment, one day before losing their probationary period and becoming eligible for union protection.  Nice job, NATCA.  Not only are you willing to sit on your hands while reps are fired or crucified, but you also seem willing to bilk the weakest, frailest and least able to afford it out of dues money you KNOW will put them in harm's way, also knowing you can't do A DAMN THING ABOUT IT except collect 364 days of dues.  Shame.  Shame.  Shame.   

Lucky for the sane among us, the NATCA National Elections are but eight short months away.  The stupid among the current crowd of incumbents will seek re-election, some having bilked the union with their drinking and affairs, others with their inaction in the face of danger, still others with their travel vouchers, even others for promoting staff who bill NATCA to fly first class, and a few with lesser known (by most) crimes. 

When the election season begins in earnest the litany of facts, failures and broken promises chronicled by myself and so many others, saved just for this occasion, will line up against 2006's brochures, and it will make the current internal imboglio seem like, well, one of Pat's photo love-ins and sheetcake parties with his pals at the FAA.

Comments

[Reader]

I never saw a genuine Dear John letter before. Disgusting.

[dimondjm]

WOW John, you have got to stop beating around the bush. I am tired of having to read between the lines to get your message. Come on man articulate yourself. (That may be bad grammer, SORRY).

I knew there was a good reason why I voted for you.

[Annie]

I've read and re-read the screw you letter, and please help my pea brain out with my questions:

Am I correct in understanding that the membership of NATCA passed a resolution instructing the disbursement of $300,000 into a fund which is charged, among other things, to reimburse your legal expenses and those of Mr. Marks?

Am I correct in understanding that the Executive Board is simply refusing to carry out the resolution passed by the membership?

Is there a possibility of competent pro bono representation of you and Mr. Marks against NATCA?

Will the last air traffic controller please remember to turn off the scopes upon retirement or termination?

Do the NATCA bylaws stipulate what happens to union officers when they refuse to carry out NATCA resolutions?

[Digusted]

Note to the FAA-- You do not get credit for breaking the Union.
Our current leadership (including voting delegates) gets that honor. Before anyone starts an attack on this message go back to your facility and get a whiff (yes, a big 'ole smelly one) of the attitude of the bargaining unit employees. (You strong Union folks in NY & other patches of the country disregard.) National had better tighten its collective belts 'cause '09 will see less dues dollars flowing in.

[WTF]

That's it, im done with this union. I am paying almost $100.00 per month for what? That $100.00 per month will now be going to my TSP account. This is not a union

[Big&Rich]

John (and Bob, cuz I'm sure you're reading), I am so sorry. I am so ashamed of our organization (can't use the "u" word) right now. We always knew this was a no-win situation: it would either hit NATCA hard financially or spiritually. I guess they chose to take the spiritual hit and time will tell how high the damage will go. Again, I am sorry and ashamed. All I can say is I will go to Mr Sherwood's site, get an address, and write a check again. I hope all reading do the same.

[atcsocal]

JTB,

I'm glad you think the eight months away to a new election are short, because they'll be hell on the rest of us who are still watching this union go down in flames with this NEB. Maybe Jimmy Ray will continue to hold Forreys limp d@#k, but for me and many that I work with, we've decided this will be a one term board if we can do anything about it. Unanimous vote, huh? ALL OF THEM NEED TO BE SHOWN THEIR WALKING PAPERS!

[I knew it !]

Johnny me boy, it's tears that come to my eyes from reading your letter.

Yes, Union still exists, if only in the hearts and minds of those who continue to have faith, backbone, character and integrity.

Long live JTB.........with respect.

[John Carr]

TEN THOUSAND thank-yous to the kind men and women at The Potomac Current And Undertow, a wicked good blog, for catching two typos in my entry today. You're right....I was banging away at 70wpm and posted it without spell checking it.

TEN MILLION thank-yous to all of you who have been kind enough to leave a note. You can expect Mikey and Jimmy and Whorowitz and Barbie and Scooter and a few other letter-sweater-wearing cheerleaders to come out of the woodwork shortly and tell us all how we don't have command of the facts and how we are mischaracterizing it and how, why, this blog is an example of the crazy man.

They can all (with the exception of JR) blow me. Their cocoon of incompetence that insulates Pat is on fire, and they don't even know it. It's sad, really, how many Kool Aide drinkers we have on our side of the bargaining table, so intoxicated with their proximity to power that they actually think they are doing something. Pathetic.

Anyway...thanks again to those who know the score. My sincere condolences to those who don't.

Very best,

John

[blue cat]

Is the form to stop dues on natca.org someplace? I can't seem to locate it which is odd considering that since Pat has been elected it is probably the most used form in the bargaining unit.

[WTF, over.]

Ya know, regardless of how you feel on this matter, --which is in itself a great source of arguement -- the bottom line is this: The membership, through convention, directed the NEB to do something. The NEB is refusing, and without a word of explaination to it's members. That's bullshit.

[Craig]

This is not a Union, Unions fight back, I still see people talking to supes, helping the airlines arrive early, working OT etc. This is the biggest pussyfest ever. We deserve EVERYTHING WE GOT. They are now sure, positive we won't fight back in anyway. The cowardly me me me fuc*ers in this social club will continue to suck up OT, give every airline as direct a routing as they can and kiss ass to get a day off. No sacrifice here!! No siree. You don't NEED the nationals approval or even your locals, just friggin fight back, but yea it might cost you some OT, or even the SCI most of you probably crave. It won't happen but God quit fuc*ing whining when you won't even stand up for yourselves. The Airlines should be hemorrhaging money and begging the FAA to settle, the Union SHOULD be able to say the ENTIRE controller workforce is forced to work OT. Managers cars Should be burning or something should be happening but none of it is, and of none of it will. We won't fight back, they know it and they won, and will continue to win.

[retired and glad]

I'm not sure if it still works the same, but there was only a very short window to exit the union and stop dues deduction...it was in January. It may not be that way now.....

[on the recieving end]

I am sorry the NEB has chosen this course of action. I have been a member since the start of my career with the FAA. The union busting our government has been involved in is affecting the entire country. Unions are not perfect and this is only a small (Hugh if you are the one affected) example of that fact. Running more like a business mind set is what drives the politicians to cover themselves in providing a bail out for people who are screwing this country.

This bed we all lay in gets sticky at times…it is time to change the sheets.

[Disgusted]

Here you go:

http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdfimage/sf1188.pdf

[Paul Cox]

To all...don't quit the union. CHANGE it. Vote out the jerks who're making bad calls, vote in people that you might not like personally but who are doing a good job.

Leaders find a way; the NEB didn't. Let's get some leaders in there.

[WTF, over.]

Paul : "To all...don't quit the union. CHANGE it."

We tried. At the convention. They found a way around it.

Paul: "Vote out the jerks who're making bad calls, vote in people that you might not like personally but who are doing a good job."

That's pretty much already guaranteed. Meahwhile Bob Marks goes bankrupt, which is why we tried to CHANGE it (see above).

I totally agree with you brother, but meanwhile shit's gotta get done. And it ain't gettin done.

[Air Traffic Pawn]

Oh my gawd...when I met Pat years ago when he was a Great Lakes RVP, I thought he was a limp-di** then. Now I KNOW he's a limp-di**. To all of you weenies out there who don't think a union or solidarity is crucial, try getting a job as an instructor at the Academy (NON-UNION), and you'll see what not having any kind of solidarity or union support can mean! Those of you PU**IES out there that are pro-Pat and his little love fest need to take a hard look at what you stand for and talk with some of us that no longer have any kind of union backing. You'll change your tune real fast.

[ZZ-Retired]

This is a very sad day for NATCA. Union my ass !
Craig, you hit the nail right on the head. No fight in these pussies !

[Shakespeare]

The whole thing was wishy washy from the start. It should have been a simple resolution that directed the NEB to give Carr and Marks money. Instead it was twisted with amendments to have NATCA buy this blog (at a $1 discount), or hire Carr and Marks, or hire the lawyers involved, or any other item on the Chinese menu; all for the sum of the legal defense for Carr and Marks. We spent close to 6 hours over 2 days on this issue only to come out with something with no teeth. Resolution should have been to give them cash and vote on that, plain and simple. The resolution does NOT direct the NEB to send money from the fund to ANYONE. It only directs them to set up the fund, put in 300k, and give priority for CONSIDERATION to Carr and Marks. It didn't take an FAA sheet cake eater to see this coming. Lots of good intentions at the convention (which didn't cost much more than previous, minus the cost to change sleeping arrangements), but it ended with diddly shit. No one seemed to want a straight vote on cash donation, and in the end no one really got all they wanted. Have the courage to stand in support or not, but no one wins with spineless compromise.

[retired]

"try getting a job as an instructor at the Academy"
Air traffic pawn. If you tried this. You are part of the problem. Why help the faa recover from this mess. Yeah, I know, not doing this could actually cost you some money.
Why should the faa pay all these union busters, ehen they have all you guys willing to do the job for free?

[Big&Rich]

This is MISDIRECTION at its finest. NATCA "leadership" is trying to hide behind legality. Forrey sends out an update quoting the applicable statute, saying union funds MUST be used for the benefit of the union or its members, and since Marks/Carr were not acting at the behest of NATCA.....

WHOA! WAIT A SECOND!!! There it is right there, the bait and switcheroo.

From the beginning, this has been about were they acting on behalf of the union or not, and it still is. Counsel tells the NEB they cannot spend the money. BS, cuz the NEB has already made the call claiming they're not working at the behest of NATCA. Had the NEB framed the question the other way, that they were acting on behalf of NATCA, then it'd be a proper use of union funds. Hiding behing legal counsel is BS. Like with any lawyer, accountant, doctor, anyone - the advice they give you is based on and only as good as THE INFO YOU GIVE THEM! The NEB gave legal the info that they weren't acting for NATCA. After all, who makes that call? Gilding? The faa? Rita Graf? NO! The union makes that call, and could just as well decided it the other way, which would result in different legal advice.

Read Forrey's explanation; it's crystal clear. Cannot use union funds if not for the union or its members, AND SINCE THET WERE NOT acting at the "behest" of NATCA, the $ can't be given. Don't buy the spin folks. It ain't cuz of legal counsel. And don't blame the convention delegates. It's because of that original call that was made by the NEB. They had the power to solve this from from the start, and still do.

This started because UNION REPS asked Bob and John to get involved and Pat Forrey used John's blog to further NATCA's cause in the matter. They WERE acting for NATCA, and the wrong call was made from the start.

Spin, spin, spin.

[packedwithpeanuts]

Listen up peoples....calling PAT and the current NEB a bunch of "Pussies" is an insult to pussies everywhere. Instead, let them know that "our collective spirit" will be their enemy very soon! I am a local officer, and will write directly to them....not that it will do much good. Trying to rationalize with an idiot is like trying to convice a dumb-ass why McCain isn't a good vote!. I implore you write your elected officials as well....just leave phrases like "head-swallowers, fecal eaters, anal tongue-drillers, and stinky f**k stains" to me! I'd copywrite them...but that wouldn't exactly be PC!

[Tony Williams]

JTB and Bob,

I truly discouraged to hear how such noble intent by the delegates was not followed through by the NEB.

Yah, I hear the legal mumbo jumbo. I wonder what the lawyers would have said before the allies invaded Normandy on D-Day? "Gee, got some case law that shows that if a somebody hurts themselves, we might get sued! Better not go; I'm sure the Germans will take good care of France."

Best wishes, from a fired NATCA rep,

Tony Williams
Airline Pilot

[no g**am hot water]

"My hands were tied." Yeah. Right.

CIP

[Floridaorbust]

ROFLMA!

[Justnotright]

John,
As a delegate to the convention, I am sorry for what has transpired. I voted to establish the legal defense fund as did the majority in Miami. The reason for the legal defense fund was you and Bob Marks and any other NATCA member who comes under attack from management. I think NATCA National should be looking to fire the legal team in Washington as they are not earning their money. NATCA National has to remember who sent them to Washington and remember what the will of the people was in Miami.

[ripone]

The problem is lack of leadership from the top down. ZKC has decided we will not use the new seniority procedure for this bidding cycle based on the (easy out) guidance from Pat. This issue was also passed by the delegates. We have 4 people affected (we know exactly who it effects and the return to bargaining unit dates are readily available) and 3 are long time non-union. Union and non-union here get exactly equal treatment and representation because no one wants to hurt anyones feelings.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

Craig,
WTF man...why do you want to screw over some family that saved up for five years to take their kids to Disney. Their flights get cancelled, it costs them all their savings so you can make a point to the FAA. Don't screw with the public, screw with the FAA! Do your job, and do it with pride. You should want to fight back, but your enemy is the FAA, not the flying public.

Hey ZZ, I thought you were going to get a hobby.

[formboy]

I hate to see anyone use it, but Blue Cat and others brought it up. Here's the link to the I QUIT form. http://www.opm.gov/forms/html/sf.asp

[FubAr - A]

I am a long time Carr supporter, contributer, and a current Officer in a big Local fighting with everything I've got (dues money, PAC money, annual leave, time on breaks and home, ETC, like just about every other NATCA officer) to right the injustice done to us by the true enemy.

I hear preaching about "union," followed by "When can I drop out" and "I can't wait to quit." Sorry, but that's not union. Union is not quitting because you don't like what the leadership is doing. It is voicing your displeasure, trying to change their views; then, voting them out if you are so inclined.

I hope John would agree that dropping out of the union or stopping your PAC contribution is not the way to show your displeasure with NATCA leadership. More likely, you've been looking for a reason, and you found a way to justify it in your mind. Quitting is exactly what the FAA wants.

[ZZ-Retired]

Hey Sneakers, Just bid that FLM job and be done with it OK ?
You will use any excuse to work OT, stay for the 24k, and probably suck managements D%$K . I do have a hobby and that is exposing jerk offs like you for what they really are.

[John Carr]

A,

You are correct...I would not advocate quitting the union. I advocate voting in strong numbers and sending the incumbents back to their headsets, where they belong. Send them back to work traffic and let someone competent run the union. This crowd sure as hell can't. The Gang That Couldn't Shit Straight is almost out of time, and I can't wait to help run them back to the positions they are better equipped to work: the breakroom couches of America's air traffic facilities.

There's some dumbass sack of shit over on NATCAnet trying his best to clean up the NEB's urine...claiming that there is no use in helping me because I have stated I was working on my own. What an ignorant, clueless reservoir tip he is. I WAS ACTING FOR A DEAD UNION MEMBER AT THE REQUEST OF A NATCA LOCAL. DEAL WITH IT. THE CONVENTION BODY SPOKE. DEAL WITH IT. THE NEB IGNORED THE SUPREME BODY OF THE ASSOCIATION. DEAL WITH IT. YOU ARE GOING TO BE INSIGNIFICANT AGAIN IN TEN SHORT MONTHS. DEAL WITH IT.

I've got chunks of people like this clown in my stool.

JTB

[jr]

Craig you are right. I worked for the ffa without a union for 6 years. When we finally got a union, it really meant something. If people do not fight for it it is useless. Union=unity. Without it there is no union.

[Heavy D]

Sneakers says "don't screw with the public, screw with the FAA"

Could you please tell me how you are contributing to "screwing" with the FAA by working OT and staying for the 24k ? hell, you probably talk to and hang out with management too so you can get the A/L you want. You are doing nothing but making their case.
I agree with Craig and ZZ , you are an idiot !

[BW]

"You are correct...I would not advocate quitting the union..."

That needed to be said. Thank you.

[ATC@WTF]

I'm not Pat defender, but if the law says that they can't give them the money what should they do? I hear a lot of bitching, but not any suggestions on how to resolve the situation.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

ZZ-

I think the people that are still working and don't take the retention bonus are the ones you should be pissed at. I'm not going to change my lifestyle for your belief's, and I will be happy to make the FAA pay me extra for their screw-up.

Heavy D -

Being called an idiot by you reminds me of Sarah calling John a "Maverick". Did you wiggle your head and smirk as you typed it?

[D]

This did start from NATCA reps trying to get info and take of the PHX issue. 100% clear!

I won't quit, but i will stop my pac and donate that money to these guys. Shameful not taking care of our brothers.

[ZZ-retired]

Sneakers, And taking the 24k is hurting the FAA how ?
Like I said, just bid that supe job and be done with it.
I agree with heavy D. It is people like you that are proving the FAA right. NATCA came out months ago asking controllers not to take that money. If you are not supporting NATCA then who are you supporting ?
Oh that's right ,that would be you. I almost forgot how selfish you were. You are an idiot and a pussy . I am sure you have no problem living with those name tags as long as you are getting that $$$$$$$$. I can hear the FAA screaming now.....I wish these controllers would stop accepting the 24k bonus. It is killing us..........YAAAAA RIGHT !

[OK IS OK!]

To Retired: I'm happy you've got enough income to last the rest of your life! I retired early to protest the IWR's, but can't make it without an additional income. What could be better than training the NEXGEN of ATCs that will replace the retirement age ATCs of today? Start them off on the right track, give them my 35 yrs of experience, and drive home the ideal of love this job, or find another line of work.
This deadlock will pass, but someone needs to replace those of us that finally reach age 56.
Walmart greeter, or ATC instructor, it's a "no brainer"!

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

ZZ

Things are still running without you....I don't think your retirement has the FAA screaming either. NATCA has no right to tell people not to take the money. The decision to retire is personal, we all should do what is right for our families and NATCA should support that.
Like I told you before, get a hobby, maybe learn to play the violin or something.

[ZZ-Retired]

Sneakers, things are running you say ???? You must be working in fantasy land. NATCA was trying to unite by telling A-holes like you not to take the money. Like I told you before my hobby is exposing selfish people like you. I realize there a few people that really need the money. You don't sound like one of them. Please tell me again how am helping the FAA golfing every day.
My hat is off to the controllers that really do try to make a difference. They don't come in for OT nor do they have their names on the "yes" list for OT. They don't hang out with or talk to FLM's. You are truly the modern day definition of a SCAB !

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

ZZ

You are truly the modern day definition of a SCAB

I bet you changed the definition after you took your job from PATCO.

[nwprlc]

"Things are still running without you....I don't think your retirement has the FAA screaming either."

I've seen a degradation in quality, service and safety as a result of veteran controllers retiring at my facility. I've been doing this for 25 years and have seen some ups and downs in my 21 years at FAA, but this is the worst I've ever seen this agency.

"NATCA has no right to tell people not to take the money. The decision to retire is personal, we all should do what is right for our families and NATCA should support that."

NATCA didn't "tell" you to do, or not to do anything. The NEB made it clear that the retention money was coming out of other controller's pockets and it is. And the majority of contollers who took this money were already eligible and weren't going to retire anyway. So the 24 K wasn't paid to keep you on, it was paid to reward you for staying beyond your eligible date. NATCA is a family too (and taking the 24 K undermines this union in my view). At least it used to be until Bush-Blakey wrecked it with initiatives like this.

[blue cat]

I would like to clarify that I was trying to make a joke about Form 1188. I wasn't trying to imply people should be quitting the Union, I was saying that it should be on natca.org because Pat has given so many excuses to use it.
Tony Williams, you did not win your arbitration case? I have banned myself from the BBS until Carr gets back on there so I didn't know that was how your case was settled. That is a big surprise as from the facts that were available to the "average member" it seemed a slam-dunk for you.

[ZZ-Retired]

Sneakers, Once again you are showing your ignorance. Please read what NWPRLC wrote and tell me how you have supported that effort. My FAA date was 1977 and then I was fired in 1981. please tell me again what job I took.
It is time for you to STFU !

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

ZZ
If you were fired in 1981, when did you retire?

I read nwpric's post.

If those of us here that took the money retired, our airspace would have to go away, we are that short staffed. I think it would probably go to a tracon that's not too far from here. Our facility would then be downgraded because we would no longer be up/down. We have a lot of (NATCA member) developmentals here that would lose money. Is that what the NEB wants to have happen?

[ZZ_retired]

Sneakers, It is clear that you just don't get it. You are self serving and will come up with any excuse to "get the money".
it is obvious I have hit a nerve but you must face the facts of what you realy are............... A SCAB !
Over and OUT !

[Jetpusher]

You just have to love that every time JTB raises an issue with the Union, ZZ and 26+ seem to end up in verbal warfare. I would pay good money to see you two locked in a room

[Heavy D]

I have to agree with ZZ on this one. You could never get sneakers in the same room as ZZ because Sneakers is too busy volunteering to work overtime.

[Heavy D]

I have to agree with ZZ on this one. besides ,you could never get Sneakers in the same room as ZZ because sneakers is too busy working VOLUNTARY Overtime.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

ZZ
I got out of the military in 81, and was hired in 82. I knew PATCO was still out there watching but I took the job anyway. The big difference between us is I admit to being a scab.

Heavy D
Dude...your rap needs work, none of your stuff rhymes.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

Jetpusher

How much would you pay? I might be willing to give up a little OT for that.

[zz26dd]

You guys are entertaining! It is round #4 and not much blood showing yet!

[Tony Williams]

>>>Tony Williams, you did not win your arbitration case?... from the facts that were available to the "average member" it seemed a slam-dunk for you <<<<<<

We have not received an answer from the arbitrator on my removal case.

Today, I celebrate 20 years in the agency. On Oct 5, 1988, I raised my right hand at the FAA academy in Oklahoma City to be sworn in.

As I'm sure John and Bob will agree, no case is a "slam dunk". Yes, you may win, but at what cost? For Bob, it may very well be the loss of his house, and his kid's college options. I suspect John is on more solid footing financially, but it will still cost big, win or lose.

I've already lost a home over this fight with the agency. Even if I win the war, the cost of battle has been high. To lose the war is a loss that I can never regain. The last 20 years of my life.

Tony Williams
Airline Pilot

[An Army of One]

The Resolution passed at the convention was poorly written; it did not require anything, except that John & Bob receive the first 'consideration'. It didn't change anything for the NEB and it didn't require they take care of this issue.

Result: warm fuzzies for the delegates, goose eggs for John & Bob.

[nwprlc]

That's an interesting justification Sneakers. I don't happen to buy it, but that's neither here nor there.

We have several members at my facility who took the 24 K. Many of them pick up the phone dutifully when called, come in and work the OT.

I've sicked out or traded away the majority of my OTs assigned, and haven't picked up the phone for a call in since before the Bush-Blakey work rules went in to effect.

Granted NATCA has been under an unprecedented assault by the union busters of the Bush administration, not seen since the strike of 81. But belonging to a union is supposed to mean something. Too many of our members have lost their way.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

nwpric

It's the truth whether you buy it or not. If I'm scheduled for OT, I do come to work. On my day off, I check caller ID before I pick up. ZZ likes to think I'm a "company man" because I don't agree with him. I'll go back to where this started, "don't screw with the flying public. They are not our enemy, the FAA is."

[nwprlc]

You could have continued to work past retirement without taking FAA's blood money Sneakers.

That would serve the same purpose you're claiming as your justification.

We can agree to disagree, but I see this "retention" money as simply another union busting tactic to divide our members.

[ygbsm]

You know, one thing I am soooo tired of is hearing some very anti-John Carr folks from a few large facilities spout off on the bbs. They like to blame all our woes on him. "If he hadn't been such an arrogant loudmouth the IWR would never have happened so he deserves what he gets. We told him that mouth would be the death of him and tee hee, we're soooo glad to finally see it." They say everything is Carr's fault. Well guess what, many of us NOT in those big houses happen to believe it was the abuses in those facilities that helped get us the IWR. People not only had some serious scams going on, they bragged about it. Hour on, hour off, the ever popular "earn two hours credit with a one hour early shove", the "oh, I got a tone, I'm out for the summer, tee hee" OWCP scam, the scheduled OT with sick leave scam (I personally heard one goober brag about how much money he was making by working all that OT but still had his weekend cause he'd bang in or take credit which he hadn't actually worked, wtf???), and the list goes on an on. The FAA was wrong for penalizing the entire ATC workforce for these few facilities, absolutely, but I think if these scammers HAD NOT BRAGGED ABOUT IT SO MUCH the hammer wouldn't have come down so hard. Seems like maybe their mouths got them into trouble, kinda like John Carr.

A lot of folks got fired on John's watch and a lot more were threatened. He went after them with everything we had. A lot of people didn't lose their jobs and quite a few got them back.

How many people have gotten their jobs back under the current "leadership"? It must be too expensive to go all out for all those guys, you know, the budget and all.

Sad.

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

nwpric

If you stay after you are eligible and you don't take the money you are helping the FAA with no impact. I'll take every penny they give me. That doesn't mean I won't retire tomorrow, it just means they pay me more for today. The bonus is no guarentee I won't retire, I can leave whenever I choose.

[As I see it]

Ahh....Sunday morning and a chance to catch up on the recent mail.

Here we are again, back to challenging belief systems. It will never be resolved, as is the way with other issues upon which one bases his life.

There are those who value money above all things and will do or say anything to justify the righteousness of their position.
Early in life, due to family of origin issues, many of these people learned that selfishness was the only way to survive. They carry this with them to their graves.

We also have among the membership those who come from stable and loving homes and learned early on the principles of helping and loving your fellow man. More often than not, these beliefs direct their lives and it is reflected on a daily basis by their actions.

As is with politics and religion, people ARE their beliefs, for if you take away or destroy the belief, you also destroy the person. It is this fight for survival of the ego, the necessity to be RIGHT in one's beliefs ,that causes us to
rise up and constantly defend our positions.

So the question may be, can you defend your beliefs with honor, truth, integrity and compassion?

[Al]

Yes, I think I can!

Al

[Crude]

OK IS OK,

I have ZER0 desire to help this Failed Aviation Administration out of the mess that they created by training anyone! F**k them … they caused it, they can and currently are attempting to fix it and will fail miserably!

The FFA caused it by firing some of us, the FFA caused it by subjecting some of us to so much harassment that they left as soon as they could, the FFA caused it by their not paying trainees a sufficient wage to be able to afford to stay in this profession. There are many other examples of how this was done intentionally by them to us.

Had things been different two years ago when I was forced to retire, I might have had the desire to train the new controllers, as it is now, they could not pay me enough to do that.

In an ideal world it would have been best for us to train the controllers that will be replacing us as we retire. I do not see that happening any time soon whether or not Obama wins the election. The FFA, as was stated by Oberstar needs to clean house from top to bottom. The top starts with Sturgeon, the bottom ends at the phlegms. The rest are those that are actually doing the work.

Neither … that’s the "no brainer"!

Crude – D10 Escapee 12-26-06

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

As I see it

Thank you for your post. I can honorably justify my position. I work for money. I don't know why the rest of you work, some might look good in headsets, some might like looking out windows, who knows, but I work for money.
What I do on my time off shows that I come from a stable and loving home and learned early on the principles of helping and loving your fellow man. These beliefs direct my life.

[Uncle Charley]

NATCA
1987-2008
RIP

[nwprlc]

nwpric

If you stay after you are eligible and you don't take the money you are helping the FAA with no impact. I'll take every penny they give me. That doesn't mean I won't retire tomorrow, it just means they pay me more for today. The bonus is no guarentee I won't retire, I can leave whenever I choose.

Your tracon (cab) was going to be consolidated if you didn't stay, and now you're saying you can leave whenever you like ?

The "impact" is taking the money. It splits the membership and divides the union....that's the "impact" the FAA desires (you know and I know, and the FAA knows, that the vast majority of eligibles taking the 24K would have kept right on working for the FAA without any "bonus" money).

Apparently you don't see that, all you see is your own short term financial gain.

[nuther' old goat]

Ref: 26+ wearing sneakers

"I got out of the military in 81' and was hired in 82'.

So are so proud of your military service that you won't even identify the branch?

Isn't 1982 the year that the FAA was scrambling to hire just about anyone, and did indeed fill the ranks with SCABS? I inherited some old newsclippings from that era from a relative and recall the numerous articles about hiring ex felons, drug addicts, etc in order to fill up the controlling towers. Do I read correctly that you are eligible for retirement yet continuing to work fot the controlling agency? have you been to a CPA to determine just how much you really are 'earning'?

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

nuther' old goat

Is coffee a drug?

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

nwpric

"The "impact" is taking the money. It splits the membership and divides the union"

Why???? I'm not getting it so you shouldn't get it!
Lets take away the seniority of the people that took the bonus!
Lets take away the seniority of anyone that takes a staff or sups job.
NATCA is the first union that I've ever seen that changes seniority. Why??? People will do whatever they can to make themselves more senior.
I've spent my whole carreer on the floor, never staff or management. I don't believe in taking away seniority, you earn it, it should be protected. I think FSS people should keep their seniority, they still work for the same company. Their FSS time doesn't count because of selfish children in NATCA that don't want someone to be senior to them.
You think I'm selfish for making the FAA pay me extra?

[the rock]

I'm almost sure who 26+wearing sneakers is. I soon as I'm positive I'm going to piss on your headset. Enjoy. You smell what the rock is cookin'!!!

[atcadvocate]

Looks like the FAA has completed it's to-do list.

Oh, here's a copy of that list;

1. destroy FAA/Natca collective bargaining

check

2. write our own "new" contract, the way we want it

check

3. impose draconian work rules and destroy any form of morale left at this point

check

4. do a "trial run" on a future all-out privatization plan of the ATO, with the Lock-mart/FSS deal as our "guinea pigs"

check

5. don't loose any sleep over lost pensions, homes, families, lives...

check

6. during every press release, click ruby slippers together three times, while saying "safety was never compromised."

check

7. stop hiring professionals to work in ATC. Start hiring anyone who will work for peanuts

check

8. decapitate the union---make them all body with no head

check

guys, I hate to say it. But it's the 4th quarter, and the score is 50-nothing. FAA

[26+ Wearing Sneakers]

the rock

I don't know why it matters to you who I am, though I am flattered. What I've had to say is my honest opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it. Save your republican scare tactics for someone you can intimidate.

[the rock]

26+ Wearing Sneakers

You said, "I don't know why it matters to you who I am".
Answer: Because you are selfish and hurting the BUMs.

You said, "If you don't like it, don't read it".
Answer: How do I know if I like it if I don't read it.

You said, "What I've had to say is my honest opinion".
Response: What I've said is a statement of fact. If I find out who you are I will piss on your headset.

You said, "Save your republican scare tactics..."
Response: If I wanted to scare you I could have threatened to... I dunno, maybe grow a nasty infectious culture in a petri dish, then introduce it to your mouthpiece/earpiece.

You said, "I am flattered"
Response: You should be looking for your headset.